alienEthOS: The Ethics of Sci-fi

alienEthOS forums / Show Discussions / Morality Bites Show #001 - Introduction and the Battlestar Election

Author	Message
Kevin Show Host	# Posted: 4 Apr 2006 19:58:30 \| Edited by: Kevin In the most recent episode of Battlestar Galactica, President Roslyin is faced with a tough choice in the upcoming election. Does she allow Gaius Baltar, who she suspects strongly is working with the cylons, to win the election, or does she use her military allies to fix the election in her favor? It's hard to argue that fixing an election in a democracy is moral, however, she is faced with two evils. The reins of corrupted power in her hands or the reins of power in his corrupted hands. Both possiblities are detrimental to the future of humanity. In the end, after some convincing by Admiral Adama, she decides to do what she knows is right in the present instead of doing something immoral in order to prevent a future wrong. So my question to you is, would you do what you had to do to prevent a corrupt man from gaining power, or would you do what you know is right and leave the universe to figure out the rest? And why?
Scott Haley Member	# Posted: 4 Apr 2006 21:37:48 This is a hard one. In most cases, I'd say let the democracy be a democracy, and if people elect a bad guy, they deserve him. A free election is people choosing their leader, and a riggged election is a bunch of dupes acting out a pointless ritual. Here's my problem with that, in this case: I'm a latecomer to Battlestar Galactica, but as I understand it, the people on these starships are the last survivors of their society. There may not be any more humans anywhere. If the Cylons win, that's it, Mankind goes extinct. It's a whole lot harder to stand on democratic principles when there might be no more Humans again, ever. You can make a good case that the leaders should do whatever it takes to ensure human survival, and leave it to future generations to bring back human rights. --Scott
CASizemore Member	# Posted: 7 Apr 2006 19:10:26 As a viewer and fiction writer I would have to say, yes. President Roslyin�s choice of not allowing the election to be stolen for her gives the viewers a great insight in to her and her moral fiber. It moves the story in a direction that left most viewers going, �Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!� It also turns the tired and well worn Battle-Star plot on its head. But if I were in President Roslyin�s shoes (ouch, heals suck) would I place the last hope for a free human race into the hands of a mad man? Frak No! I could no more do that then, hand over a baby to a pack of starving wolves. I do not like the XO or most of his actions but I completely agree that in times like those extraordinary actions must be taken to defend humanity even from them selves. Roslyin knows that Baltar is a Cylon Sympathizer. She has no proof other then her memory. There for she should have stopped him from taking office at all cost. Blessed Be, C. A. Sizemore C.A.Sizemore@cox.net www.casizemore.com Morality; is doing the right thing and not caring if any one is watching.
Demosthenes Member	# Posted: 9 Apr 2006 03:50:56 It is an accepted tenet that democracy cannot be effective without an informed electorate. In this particular BSG, a host of extenuating circumstances prevent the electorate from being fully informed about the Baltar situation, and thus the electorate cannot make a well-informed decision. Democracy at its heart is government of, by, and for the people. In this instance, the "of" and "by" cannot function properly, and thus only "for" is left. Because there can be no "do-overs" for the Colonials -- any mistake can potentially mean the absolute end of humanity -- the most democratic and humanistic thing that Roslyn can do is try to save her people from both their own ignorance and ultimate extinction. As a result of these considerations, I believe that, while rigging the election fails to uphold the letter of democratic law and principle, in the reality of this case, rigging better upholds its spirit. For without people, government "of, by, and for" people is pretty pointless. Roslyn made a grave error. She chose the greater of the two evils.
Scott Haley Member	# Posted: 9 Apr 2006 11:26:00 Demosthenes, your principle is that if the people are misinformed and it's a dangerous situation, it's all right, even good, to rig an election. The trouble is, there are usually a lot of ignorant or misinformed people in any electorate, and there are usually dangers threatening any society. Do you want to say that it's usually all right to rig an election?
Locke Member	# Posted: 11 Apr 2006 14:08:03 Quoting: Demosthenes Roslyn made a grave error. She chose the greater of the two evils. I would have to disagree Demosthenes. The nature of the question is such that you must look at her decision based on her available information. She did not know that a cylon had access to, much less would set off, a nuclear device. She did not know that the cylons could detect the blast and she did not know how difficult life would really be on the planet. We have the benefit of hindsight. But, alas, she did not. Quoting: Socrates I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance. I argue that it is hubris to think that you can predict the future and it is an even greater hubris to think that you can truly change it. If she had rigged the election, even worse fates could have visited the humans. Possibilities I can imagine include civil war, starvation, running out of fuel, annihilation by the cylons, or even domestic terrorism. How do we know that this course of events isn't exactly what the colonists need to harden themselves? That this isn't the path to eventual salvation? I think we have a responsibility to do what's right at all times, not bend the rules to try to influence an uncertain future. No, the moment she was voted out of office, it was no longer her place to decide for the colonists.
CASizemore Member	# Posted: 11 Apr 2006 17:07:50 Quoting: Locke I argue that it is hubris to think that you can predict the future and it is an even greater hubris to think that you can truly change it. <SNIP> How do we know that this course of events isn't exactly what the colonists need to harden themselves? That this isn't the path to eventual salvation? The Colonials should not have to "harden themselves" the crucible of fleeing the Cylons should be enough to forge them into a weapon able to defeat the Cylons. I am not saying that New Caprica will not fill the same role but the Cylons now have the upper hand. The Colonist will likely loose far more people and far faster on New Caprica; then when they were on the run from the Cylons. Quoting: Locke I think we have a responsibility to do what's right at all times, not bend the rules to try to influence an uncertain future. No, the moment she was voted out of office, it was no longer her place to decide for the colonists. I have no problem doing what is right. But what is right and what is against the rules are some times different things. Roslyn knows Baltar was a Cylon Agent before the War. She knows that he is the one that allowed Six to take down the Colonies Defenses. She can not prove this but it is the truth. The fact that she allowed Baltar to become President makes her as responsible for every death as Baltar and the Cylons. She knew the right thing to do was to protect her people from Baltar, because if they knew what she knew they would throw him out the nearest airlock. The fact that he won the election is irrelevant in the light of the fact that he is a traitor to all of humanity. He should be thrown out an airlock. Not allowed to doom humanity to a life of Slavery at the hands/waldos of the Cylons. Blessed Be, C. A. Sizemore C.A.Sizemore@cox.net www.casizemore.com Morality; is doing the right thing and not caring if any one is watching.
torpid Show Contributor	# Posted: 11 Apr 2006 23:02:22 \| Edited by: torpid I would do whatever I had to do to prevent a mad man from getting into power! Why are people even questioning this? The elections held by the tattered remains of humanity are a farce to begin with, and I felt that the elections were held more to give people a sence or normalcy than out of any feeling of obligation. Just having an election doesn't mean that you're legitimate. The fact is, we haven't really witnessed the government of the fleet doing anything positive or helpful. So far, they have: - Forcibly halted barter black market - Held elections - Had marines invade civilian ships and shoot people - Forced people to live on a barren rock - Taken away a woman's right to choose - Used military might to break up unions - And it has been strongly implied that they have confiscated and hoarded medical supplies and luxuries for themselves. (look at baltars office after a year) Basically, doing what governments do best -- screwing the people. And no, the government has done nothing to defend the fleet, the galactica has, and they aren't the government. The only thing the government has done so far as I can tell, is oppress people. If it weren't for the cylons, they would probably have started collecting taxes too. If I were a member of the fleet, I would have just broken away and tried my luck with the cylons by now. I don't want to get off on a tangent here, but democracy is way over-rated, and people often mistake democracy for freedom. You don't need democracy to be free, and most of the time, democracy is just used as a tool to take freedom away from democratic minorities, and give legitimacy to tyrants. Just look at all of the unfree hellholes today that are democracies, such as Zimbabwe or Palestine. And, also look at all of these very free places, like Shenzen, Hong Kong, or Dubai, which are not really democracies at all! Democracy, especially direct democracy is an inefficient, unfair, and discriminatory way of selecting people to rule everyone. People all too often act like democracy is sacred. The fact is, democracy is a deeply flawed system, and should merely be tollerated, not put on a pedestal. Democracy is a manufactured virtue. Much like how many religous people say that being faithful makes you a good person. Faith and prayer by itself is neither right nor wrong, but many people have assigned it a moral value. Democracy is neither right nor wrong, it is more abstract than that, so I think it is incorect to assume that tampering with an election is always the wrong thing to do. Anymore than being unfaithfull.
CASizemore Member	# Posted: 12 Apr 2006 11:04:09 Quoting: torpid The fact is, democracy is a deeply flawed system, and should merely be tollerated, not put on a pedestal. Democracy is the worst governmental system ever devised by man until you compare it to any other system. � Churchill I think. True democracy breaks down at a point where people stop working in enlightened self interest and start thinking selfishly. Unfortunately in countries like Zimbabwe & Palestine the democratic institutions were supplanted by the greed of the individuals. The fact that Hong Kong or Dubai are bastions of freedom with out democratic institutions is a fluke of enlightened self interest; not good examples of People living in freedom outside of a democracy. Hong Kong until a few years ago was one the most successful democracies on the planet. Until Great Brittan abandoned them to the vagaries of the Communist Peoples Republic of China, I know that Brittan signed a treaty and that treaty called for the return of island to China. But the people of Hong Kong went from being one of the freest people in the world to the subjects of a one of the most brutal countries in world; in the time it took the Brits to lower the flag. As far a Dubai goes the kingdom is a release valve on the oppression of the Persian Gulf, and as a country dancing the delicate knife edge of Fanaticism and assisting the West�s enforcement of bad policy decisions. It is in danger of slipping and then the people of Dubai will pay the price. Not the rich Sheiks and Oil Barron�s, they will simply move to another location, but the people who live their lives and raise their children trying to be good people. They will be hurt far more if and when the next King decides that his only way into Paradise is to enforce what ever the latest version of �Islamic Law� with a swords edge. Blessed Be, C. A. Sizemore C.A.Sizemore@cox.net www.casizemore.com Morality; is doing the right thing and not caring if any one is watching.
Kevin Show Host	# Posted: 12 Apr 2006 20:14:39 \| Edited by: Kevin Quoting: CASizemore Democracy is the worst governmental system ever devised by man until you compare it to any other system. � Churchill I think. Close, here's the actual quote. "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."